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Thursday, August 9, 2012

Our own Echo Chamber

The online chatter, network punditry, and arguments between ourselves have become a giant echo chamber where new ideas cannot penetrate.

I really don't know why, but periodically I will take a peek at our newly improved Facebook format, our online forum has taken because old habits are hard to break. It's still the antiquated “you’re a racist, and I'm not" type of dialogue that takes place every day.

I’m my own echo chamber, repeating my ideals thinking that maybe one day we will get beyond the viewpoints that have not worked in the past.

One of the favorite subjects is illegal immigration, where someone will submit a blog just to do a little race- baiting, knowing that he won't have to wait long before someone bites. The whole discussion will be between individuals who don't know (nor do they want to) a thing about the economics' of illegal immigration, and that's what it's all about.

The discussion will start with a poster calling the immigrants criminals or the preferred illegal aliens because it sounds more demeaning. The posters will step up on their pedestal and tell the world of how their ancestors who all came here it legally; of course, they can't prove that because illegal immigration didn't just start a few years ago. They probably don't know that the first offense for crossing into this country illegally is a misdemeanor and then they're usually processed and sent back to their country of origin, where they will not have to wear that label “illegal alien" again. The topic then has a life of its own, where unverified opinions will be the prevailing method they will use. The open borders crowd will first try to play the sympathy card, which will quickly be rejected, so there is no other options but to engage in ad hominem attacks.

As I was riding of my bicycle this morning, I kept wondering if there was a solution to this problem had that has divided us for so many years. I compare the people that keep coming to our country illegally to cigarette smokers (although cigarettes are legal products) because they both know the consequences of bad choices, and we cannot force them into submission... We taxed the tobacco consumer and made it harder for them to support their habit in public places, so why wouldn't that tactic work for illegal immigration?

We call the people who break our immigration laws criminals, but we don't do the same for the businesses who hire them. It costs a lot of money to raid an establishment that's known to hire the illegal immigrants because there’s court costs’, processing, over time for surveillance and then the transporting fees. Why not make these raids revenue neutral for the Feds? We could charge the indicted companies the entire amount of what it takes from day one until the time we release the immigrants, on top of the normal penalties. The full amount would include the costs for medical, education, and back taxes. We know that jail time would only mean that they would just transfer ownership, but astronomical fines would bankrupt them.

That sounds relatively easy and the "no amnesty crowd" would go along with this but those companies have lobbyists. Do you really think they're going to let the politicians take a stand against the companies? In this case, I will compare the drug addict to the American consumer who cannot go cold turkey. We want and demand cheap products; especially in this economy. For each additional raid ICE makes, the more, the consumer will pay at the register. My conspiratorial mind tells me that we won't hold too many raids because we need cheap labor, if our country is going to maintain the 1.5%, growth or expand it to 4% growth. I agree with Ron Paul when he said that if we were at 4 to 5% unemployment; we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Yes, we can make this issue tolerable, but it won't be until after the American voter gets tired of the Hatfield and McCoy answers. The ideal time would be tomorrow because the southern border is manageable right now. The answer is still and always will be a comprehensive reform package where each side has to do the unthinkable; compromise. We can't allow 11 million undocumented people living among us. Attrition will never work, so the answer is that most of the 11 million will likely stay, but they shouldn't be at the head of the line for citizenship. It will be a long drawn-out process with documentation being the priority. There are those who compare our immigration policies with other countries, saying that we are the most lenient, but that's not the issue. The other countries kept their immigration under control, but we did not, either for greed, necessity, or incompetence. We need to update our inept computer system, so we can carry out the E- verify a system without fear that the system would cost a U.S. worker their job. Those wanting voter ID laws should accept the concept of a tamper proof national ID card.

It all starts at the voting booth, so if you like the status quo then vote for those wanting to amend the 14th amendment, implement voter id laws but not a national ID. Card, and those who are advocating attrition only, open borders, or English only causes.


born2Bme said...


Staying out of this one

call me mud said...

I have always found the immigration policy insane. We punish the "worker" and pat the "employer" on the head. I know for a fact the owner of one of our fine cities "best" restaurant has an "illegal" beautifing his establishment. Taking away a local landscapers livelihood. Probably. Saving the owner money, most definitely. So who is the guilty one, the "worker" or the "employer". My thought is the industrious Republican shares the greatest guilt.

So what is the answer? Raid the establishment. Send home the undocumented. Identify the money the "owner saved". Then let the government keep their cost, send the remaining money to the returned alien and post a big sign on the "employers" front gate.

Probably won't work. The Republicans will say it is not the "employers" fault the illegal is here. Democrats will say it is not the illegals fault because he came here to better himself.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on how to end the hypocracy.

(Name witheld this time so as to protect self from being tarred and feathered.)

Mike said...

call me mud
That's a unique down home way of looking at it and I don't necessarily disagree with your viewpoint.

CNN interviewed a Kansas landscaper who could not hire Americans @ $8.25 an hour to work in the hot sun.

Your idea is a fair and equitable idea but I don't know if it will solve the problem..

Thanks for the response that keeps the discussion going.

call me mud ;-) said...

OK. Tar and Feather both the employer and the illegal. Sentence each to one year of the "illegal" walking in the shoes of the Republican employer and the "employer" to living in the "illegals" Mexico home. Now, is that fair? The good point the Republicans gain one voter and the Democrats gain one voter. The old switcheroo.

Mike said...

I'm not into tar & feathering but I would like a comprehensive reform bill where the Republicans and Democrats walk away saying" I didn't get all I wanted but it's what's best for America."

I don't think the votes are an issue.

born2Bme said...

So you develope a work program where the employers can go to get qualified undocumented workers. That way our governement can keep up with who is here, how much the employer is paying, make sure pay isn't under the table and at least not lower than what is legal, and proper taxes are being paid.
When that is in place, fine the hell out of any company that hires those not associated with the program.
But with that, also has to come the other part of the issue so the "draw" is not there anymore. Mike and I do not agree on those areas, so I'll just leave that alone.

dale said...

The program is (or was ) already in force to bring qualified workers. I worked for a company where we brought in Romanian mechanical engineers. (Back then it only took a couple months to bring in the employee.) The problem, as I see it, is the aliens who are manual labor or no skill labors. Skilled foriegn doctors may be waiting just a bit to immigrate. It seems to be those folks who are without skills who must wait and are inclined to sneak in.

Past amnesty programs have not worked. The problem may lie in the Catch 22. You fine employers, they will not hire folks who may be Americans but are stereotyped as "illegals". Then the advocacy groups get real mad. If those same employers get fined, their professional groups will get equally bent out of shape. Good luck Mike in finding a middle ground.

born2Bme said...

As a homeowner, we've hired roofers who hired undocumented workers. All I can say is that some of them can make you real uncomfortable, when we go outside while they are on the roof. They always stop and stare at any woman that is outside and start talking to each other in their language and laugh. It's just uncomfortable.
I refused to let my then 23-yr. old daughter even come home until after they left in the evenings. I know she would have caused a stir and didn't want her to have to deal with that. You know, them up high looking down.
Is this specific to undocumented, but at least I can understand what is being said and file a complaint if I need to.

Mike said...


I can understand your fears but undocumented workers are not any different than any other human beings...I remember the people of Leesville LA.,Ft. Benning GA. and El Paso warned their daughters to stay away from us soldiers...It even happened in when I was in South Korea,so it doesn't matter what Congress does they are not going to do anything about human behaviors.,walk down the street in Chicago and you'll hear the cat calls and see the lewd gestures ...BTW as a good citizen,you should have picked up the phone and called INS and turned in the lawbreakers..:-)

Mike said...


You are correct, there are several immigration classification but most people concentrate on the low skill because they can be addressed with person opinions. That the echo chamber zone.

The highly skilled visa are the H1Bs and I agree with the economists who say that we should be attaching Green Cards to those engineering students diplomas who are graduation from our prestigious colleges. We need them, since we are not graduating enough engineers to keep up with our competitors.It in our economic interest.

The fines are just part of the enforcement part but it's just a part of the overall solution. I understand your example and agree with it somewhat but I am a resident of South Texas where we both know what's going on...You see all employers of our great state are required to get an I-9 (Immigration form 9) signed and it should ensure them that the potential employee has two forms of ID. We also have the New Hires program where the employer is supposed to verify the socials...Be honest, how many of good citizen employers are complying;perhaps 10%?Like everything else, they weigh the cost of complying...The Free Market cost analysis can also be use by dubious employers.

The advocacy groups will make noise and lobbyists will cut deals with Congress and the first amnesty did not work, so I guess the Romney "self deportation" is the only course available? I think not, I read and reread the Kennedy-McCain comprehensive reform plan which was endorsed by President George W. Bush and I think it’s a good start but it will have to be adjusted as we go along.

That's enough for now but I will cover the economics that you might not have thought in another blog

born2Bme said...

I know they are no different. The only difference is that no one knows who they are, whether they are criminals, rapists, thiefs, murderers, or just some man looking for an American girl to try and make his stay easier. There is no way to check up on them. I think this is the thing that bothers me the most.
I didn't want to call anyone. I just refused to go outside while they were up there. Problem solved with the least amount of trouble.