In 2004 Howard Dean said in order for the democrats to pick up some votes in the south, they would have to stop talking about God, guns, and gays. Candidate Barack Obama was chastised by the press when he said the truth by saying "But the truth is, is that, our challenge is to get people persuaded that we can make progress when there’s no evidence of that in their daily lives. You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
It's no different in Victoria because our local paper's forum top subjects of the week are "God, guns, and gays."The state of Victoria's economy doesn't have a thing to do with these subjects being at the forefront.it has more to do with losing control in a culture war. I'm pretty sure the social conservatives have seen the trends in favor of gay-marriage, and they have kept up with Prop 8 in California. I'm sorry but gay-marriage should never be a ballot issue,all human issues should be handed in the courts. Following the discussions on gay-marriage is like driving on Lombard Street in San Francisco. Lombard Street in San Francisco is one of America's crookedest streets. The subject starts out with the typical conservative whine by saying that the Victoria Advocate story was left leaning. To the social conservative, anything left of Attila the Hun is left leaning. The subject drifts to polyandry, incest, bestiality, HIV Aids, and many other diversions. I'm surprised that waywardwind brought out the issue of the constitution. He is right but no one discussed it because the smokescreen was getting all the attention. The Federal government has no business in defining marriage. I believe the Supreme Court will look at the constitutionality of the “Defense of Marriage Act" (DOMA)that was signed into law by President Bill Clinton. The social conservatives are doing a good job with their smoke screens because I have not seen where visitation rights or the right to file a joint return being discussed. There are too many inconsistent conservatives. True to their conservative beliefs ,waywardwind and staunch conservative Ted Olson takes a quote from the 14th amendment (my favorite) "no State É shall deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person É the equal protection of the laws" to make their case. The other social conservatives' repeat "smaller government" over and over, except when it comes to the social issues.
I believe some conservatives would see nothing wrong with a man wanting to marry his gun. Mark my word, the" guns on college campuses" law is just the first step in making Texas an "Open carry" state. Why not have an up and down vote right now while the republicans have a very large majority. Get it off the agenda but it won't make one iota, because preventing mass murder by allowing everyone to pack guns is not a proven science. While it's true that the criminals already have all the guns they want; arming paranoid citizens will not scare off the criminal. If we could get a map showing us where the gun permits are being issued; I would bet most of are being issued on the north side; far away from the gang bangers they fear. I have looked at FBI statistics that show guns are rarely used in home defense. I can't remember a story in the Advocate where a gun was used to kill a burglar. I've heard fellow coworkers talk endlessly of the day that they would kill a burglar trying to get into their home. I know a lot of it is just talk, but I can't see myself shooting someone because they are stealing my lawn mower. I remember telling my fellow coworkers that I didn't even own a gun... They said that they would know what house to steal from. I left them speechless; I said" you're no better than the burglars." The bottom line is; people can have all the guns and ammunition the law allows but paranoid citizens with guns do not give me a sense of security. They can spend all day trying to convince people that an" armed society is a safe society" but they sound like a debt strapped husband trying to convince his wife that they need a $5,000 boat to lower the grocery bill.
I learned a long time ago that it is useless to argue with social conservatives that are locked in. Sure, you could spend endless hours debunking their arguments, but they'll have some fresh ones when you get through.........For example, after Sarah Palin's weird ficticious account of the Paul Revere's midnight ride ,supporters of Sarah Palin tried to rewrite the Wikipedia acoount of that ride, to fit Sarah Palin's account..Even after Chris Wallace gave her a chance to take back her account of the facts, Sarah Palin doubled down..... Stephen Colbert had to show how it would be physically impossible to reload a front loaded musket and ring a bell, while riding a horse at full gallop...He used a mechanical hobby horse....After all that,Chris wallance said she gave a a credible interview.... Compared to what?
21 comments:
BigJ
I'm hoping that you drop by and receive this message.
You basically said that you would quit the democratic party because a few posters are attacking Christians and their believes over same- sex marriage. If that's all it takes; then you are in the wrong party in the first place because the democratic party will always support civil rights. I think you have a lot of differences with the democratic party and you would be happier in the republican party; it's not all about Sean Hannity, Rush and Glenn Beck. ... If a few posters can make you leave the party, then you weren't a good democrat to start with. The Democratic party is a national brand not a local one.
The agnostics and atheist will always question Christian beliefs but I keep my politics secular because this nation is about all people and their beliefs. I will never wear my religion on my sleeve, when I'm talking about politics because I believe in true separation of church and state..... Political parties are not supposed to be about single issues unless you're you're only goal is to control the social agenda.
Have a good night and I hope you reply.
I know I have the right to my opinion, I just don't have the ability to know when to not argue with republicans. They can be relentless. And of course, they are always right.
They are making me nuts over on the VA.
EA
I don't know if maryann was condescending when she asked"Edith Ann, would you open up the definition of marriage to triads and to adult incestual couples? If not why not? And if so, why?......surely, that wasn't a question,I guess she was using that statement as her example.
She is pretty sneaky when she puts on her conservative game face on...:-)
I think they like to muddy the waters. What started as Mary Ann's criticism of the word 'debate' in the VA headline, turned into a discussion of brothers and sisters marrying, triads, polygamy, and such. No, they like to pin folks down.
The discussion should have been about individual rights. Everytime anyone went to individual rights, the conversation was dragged back to "my marriage is diminished if some gay gets the same rights as I have."
It's getting old, but we know they are not going to change. You know Laura Bush supports gay marriage. Dick Cheney's daughter is a lesbian. So I guess we're not the only heathens out there!
I quit on them. I know better! I am smarter than to let them lure me in. I must resist! I will say, though, Mary Ann is still one of my favs. We have to have those folks to remind us why we think the way we do, right?
Thansk for letting me share that!
EA
We see it the same way; individual rights or civil rights that doesn't threaten the so-called traditional marriage......it's as if we hurt their feelings by having the audacity to disagree with them...They will cite one example in Germany or in the case of Gary,never-ending scripture as rock solid proof they are right.....You just get a rebuttal;I get a competing blog ,mocking me word for word....:-)
The way I see it, Gary's computer has a chastity belt that won't let him go to any non-church sanctioned sites except the Advocate, that is if he could even find his way to my blog.
As to the others, they are like me--they want it on their turf.
I think this is another of those topics that they try to discuss, but they haven't thought it all the way through. I don't mean MA, she just makes up her mind!
maryann is a tough cookie, but for every action there is an equal and opposite action - hence why she will always find me not too far from her comments.
Mike.
I guess you took my “leaving” the Democratic Party to heart. The Democratic Party needs to reform itself. Instead of paying off the National Debt, the Democratic Party choose to increase it. Instead of getting out of two wars, it was the Democrats who added another with the actions in Libya. Instead of finding ways to reduce the price at the pump, the Democrats choose to cling to the false security of “green” energy.
Where are the Democrats like an Andrew Jackson who pay off the National Debt? Where are the Democrats like Martin Van Buren who help fighting the US Bank (ie: Federal Reserve)? Where are the Democrats like John F. Kennedy who cut taxes to help the economy. I am for auditing, amending, and even destroying the Federal Reserve. I am for using and backing all forms of energy. I am for a foreign policy that seeks peace and understanding first. I am for reforming the tax code much like Paul C Fisher.
People are hurting, Mike? Hell, I am hurting. It seems I get paid just to be broke. There is a problem when people’s take home pay doesn’t take them home. If you think I am seriously joining the Republican Party, then you are sadly mistaken.
The liberal wing of the Democratic Party had abandon the Poor community by supporting Abortion clinics near those areas. The Liberal wing of the Democratic Party are pro-choice when it comes to Abortion, but anti-choice with education.
I am of the Christian faith. I may not be a good example of being Christian and Lord knows I am not, but I do know Christians are suppose to keep their father’s commandments. Christians should defend his faith from falsehoods and attacks. There is a huge, huge difference between questioning a faith and attacking it.
Maybe I should post an unpublished blog about the evils of conservatism and liberalism.
Mike.
Let me add this. I promise you this....there will be a Democratic President who will reform the Demccratic party much like how Teddy Roosevelt reformed the conservative/pro business GOP.
BigJ
Oh, where do I start but it was you who initiated the" I will quit the democratic party talk" and you are calling for a makeover not reform.
Look at the democratic platform and you will find that the party is pro -choice and for clean green energy to replace the dirty coal and fossil fuels, realizing that goal is a long term vision that is attainable.
Neither democrats nor republicans will pay off the national debt and this is 2011, not 1830, different era, different problems.... It's really about economic methodology; austerity or Keynesian.
The democrats did not add Libya as a third war front; the president, the military, and his counterparts at NATO, the UN, and the Arab League did initially for humanitarian reasons. Remember the president didn't consult with Congress and it was the republicans who said we should have gone it alone and removed Omar Qaddafi from office, about three weeks before president Obama made his decision.
If you would look up the legislation; democrats have cut taxes 16 times and taxes are lower in relation to GDP since Harry Truman.... George W Bush cut taxes twice and left office with us losing up to 850,000 jobs a month.... President Clinton raised taxes and created 21,000,000 jobs while the entire Bush administration (8 years) pretty about 1 million.
The tax code needs to be simplified, tax loopholes and some deductions eliminated, but it must still be progressive in nature in a more you make more you pay method. We're not ready for a radical transformation of eliminating all income taxes and sales tax and replacing it with a graduated asset tax on $100,000... That plan would never be submitted to the House Ways and Means Committee, so it's not worth discussing. We'll continue to have a central government (the Fed) and it has always been audited with limitations; and some things must be kept secret in order for foreign governments to have our complete trust. Any way that's another thing that's not going to happen.
The liberal wing of the Democratic Party doesn't have any influence on where Planned Parenthood builds their clinic. You are taking a "talking point" from Kenneth. It was a business decision to build where their clients are. Planned Parenthood provides important screening and Medical Care to those who can least afford it.... The rich will have their abortion in sunny California, Paris France, or in South America.... Your statement doesn't even make sense because the poor went into the clinic poor and came out poor. It's not an economic issue and it only becomes a political issue when republicans try to get around Roe v Wade. That doesn't make any more sense them when Louis Farrakhan said “The Jew is the white devil, because he builds his liquor stores in our neighbor."..... The liberal wing of the Democratic Party will stand for increasing the minimum wage, keeping the entitlements, equal pay for equal work, collective bargaining, and voting for unemployment compensation.
Are y'all keeping up with the discussion on Mary Ann's letter? THEGeek is giving them a run for their money.
BigJ
I'm also a Christian but as I told maryann several years ago; our church does not need defending because it rises and falls on its own merits. I went on to tell her that we have to realize that we wear a target on our back anytime we mention the catholic church.
You have posted several blogs about evils of conservatism and liberalism without much success because you haven't devoted enough time in research. You only look at it in a political context ,such as talk radio and Code Pink... I have a lot of respect for a lot of intelligent conservatives and I don't have a problem with fiscal conservatism. Ideology is a state of mind and it has more to do with how someone looks at a problem.... The economy is a good example of that. Conservative and liberal economist have different viewpoints...For example both wanted stimulus but conservatives wanted mostly tax cuts and the liberals wanted infrastructure and high speed rail.
Conservative now think the $897 billion was a failure and the democrats said we should've gone with $2 trillion stimulus to match the crisis we were in.... Today's conservatives rarely talk about the middle class; their rhetoric usually centers on tax cuts, the corporate tax rate and massive spending cuts.
I did notice that you follow the republican mantra of blaming the government for everything, because you didn't mention Wall Street or the oil companies for our problems.
In closing, I just want to emphasize that portraying liberalism or conservatism as evil, is not a good starting place for a rational discussion because having a difference of opinion is not necessarily evil. Using the extremes as a basis for your thesis will not be taken seriously.... I don't think you can think that you're above the fray and show a credible alternative
BigJ
You might have a strong belief but you shouldn't promise what you can't possibly deliver.
As we should know, a president just represents one side of the equation in a government 3 separate but co branches of government...He or she has to win a primary by appealing to the base;not vise versa as witnessed in 2010 election...They will stay home....What makes you think the democratic wants a total makeover to be like their counter parts.
kyle
You do stand toe-to-toe with her because she acknowledges your points..She even said that you knew more about religion than most Christians and she knows that's her turf....:-)
You are right EA.
It looks like THEgeek is taking on all comers like Kyle,maryann, and others to come.
What a show!
EA
It's plain to see that those that are against gay marriage will not answer the pertinent questions. As you stated many times; how will it affect current marriages? When Kyle,waywardwind, and THEgeek try to turn the subject away from religion; they don't get a direct response; they just get another pre-rehearsed one.
It's the same way with abortion.... Ask the question " how much jail do you recommend giving the Dr. and the mother for having an abortion? Recently, Tim Pawnlenty had to retract his statement because he said he wasn't for criminalizing abortion. They will have to eventually answer this question because they're taking some serious steps to overturn Roe vs. Wade.... If they're going to make a fetus a person, then criminalizing abortion has to be the next step.
Mary Ann and Jared keep repeating that marriage is for, among other things, raising children. I'm going to just go ahead and guess that is straight out of some priest's mouth. That sounds like Catholic doctrine to me. I was married in a Protestant church and we did not have to agree to have children, nor did the Pastor instruct us in birth control...but I digress.
I think THEGeek has tried to remove religion from the mis. This a is rights issue, not a sex issue! Do those opposed really think gays and lesbians are going to START having sex if we allow hem to get married? Geeze-O-Pete! What morons!
It's up to 120 comments, and I notice you've jumped in, too. I think I'm going to have to contribute one more item to the mix and blog on this tonight.
I LOVED THEGeek's gluttony comment. Notice how they couldn't respond?
Yes, I thought about the abortion thing, too--let's punish the doctor but not the mother? Damn republicans don't know what they want!
EA
I don't know where they got their viewpoint from but Ted Olson shot down that down, in his argument against proposition 8. He said we had no such stipulations for those we allow to marry,such as the elderly, life term inmates. those that cannot have children, nor do we ask if a couple will have children.
I've been wanting to debunk that natural law for a long time....The 3/5 of person is a "talking point" that is often taken out a context.... Although we once thought that 3/5 of a person to be an inhumane issue; it's more in line with gerrymandering, than anything else.... If you want to make it an inhumane issue, you would have to include the arguments against the 14th amendment.
I've had my quota but the water's fine; go ahead and jump in.
Mike.
Suggesting my posts and style is similar to that of Kenneth is insulting.
Isn’t the Federal Reserve have ties with (and apart of) Wall Street? So much for me using the GOP talking points. Hadn’t you heard of the Right to Life Democrats?
Keynesian doesn’t work. Austerity measures doesn’t work. Any tax idea or plan is worth discussing despite what the Ways and Means committee says. I hope you know there is a movement for national sales tax of 23% which will be dangerous to the economy. Liberals in Washington refuse to cut anything and add to the Nationals debt. The GOP would rather punish the old, the minority, and the poor. NONE OF THEM HAVE SOLUTIONS !!!!!! MY solution is simple by cutting 10-30 percent across the board on every single budget item for 2 years. What is so hard about that, Mike?
Now back to abortion and other social issues, where I get my information is from African American run media and not from conservative or Republican media. Equal pay isn’t an issue as well as Minimum wage, entitlements and unemployment compensation . The issue is what is right and doing what is right!!!!!!!!! Doing what is right supersedes ideology. If liberals favor choice in abortion, then they should favor choice for a parent to remove his/her child from a bad school. Since the 1960’s we have fatherless homes, increase crime, broken homes, and fail marriages. We as a society should be preventing that.
The Democratic Party needs to be reform or remade. It should be home to political independents, moderates, and those who practice sync-politics. Just because I seek to reform the party that doesn’t mean making the Democratic Party into a Diet Republican Party. Plus I don’t want the party to stay into the progressive/new left area with no uniting ideas and solutions.
Part 1 of 2
BigJ
Saying that Kenneth made the same argument about liberals building abortion clinics in poor areas was a comparison of your message not your overall style.
Wall Street is Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, hedge fund managers, etc..... The Federal Reserve is our central banking system that controls our monetary system. It regulates the financial sector, and provides stability by raising and lowering interest rate to avoid high inflation or worse deflation.
There is nothing hard about "cutting 10-30 percent across the board on every single budget item for two years" but that's an austerity method that you are against. Second, the 10- 30% is just an arbitrary number that has no basis; neither does the two years. We are already operating on our 2008 discretionary spending but that is just chicken scratch compare to the big ticket items like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security Security and defense spending. So, your idea is no better than what you're complaining about because you picked a number out of the air, picked out two years as a magic point in time, and said “There is your solution."
After and during the 1929 Great Depression, Keynesian economics ‘was the main driver of getting us out that situation, with such programs as the WPA, Social Security, the GI bill, and others, where government was the only one spending. We need to use some austerity measures because we have been spending way too much in the last 20 years. There is a time and a place to use those measures.
Yes, we need to be discussing different tax plans, but they still have to go before the tax committee(House Ways and Means) so they can run the numbers through CBO before taking a committee vote. If it passes that committee,the tax plan will get debated in the house before the up or down vote..If it passes the house,it goes to the senate for a similar procedure.
Part 2 of 2
BigJ
I'm out of my elements talking about the social issues, but I think being pro choice on a woman's reproductive rights to exclude government intervention is different from a choice on school vouchers. Being pro- choice is not a part of a cafeteria plan. If you're insinuating that open- mindedness should be part of every solution; then I agree.
School voucher programs are fairly new, there are a few pilot programs, they have been successful but the jury is still out. Those that are against school vouchers say it will lead back to the days of inequality because the public schools will be neglected, even more. This is my example: the government will issue let’s say $2400 vouchers to those that want to attend private schools. Those that want to remain in public schools will not get that voucher nor will the parents of home schoolers. I think it's reasonable to assume that the tuition fee a private school would be about $3600 and much higher for an elite school. The private schools won't have the expenses of counting absences or other government requirements.
I'm not going to pretend I know the reasons behind a 51-year trend of failed marriages, crime, and the loss of a two parent home, but I don't think you can't leave out the fact that the Internet makes us more aware of these problems and increase in population has a part.
The Democratic Party is a big tent party but its base is a liberal because they're the ones who will lick the stamps, knock on doors, and man the phones. The democrats would lose without the unions because they are a large voting bloc with money. Conservative democrats are southern democrats. The east and west coast are liberal democrats. The mid states are more moderate, left of center democrats. Most first time, young voters are liberal and that is the group the democrats want...Now, when it comes to Washington; it becomes a different story because the Republican Party is united; whereas the democrats are not.
Moral of the story, take over the hard work of getting democrats elected by devoting time to lick the stamps, man the phones, and ring the door bells and the party will have to acknowledge you....That's how the Tea Party took over the GOP and that’s how Moveon does it.
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